What Jaz Loves...




my kitten says hello

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oh my god little honk honk

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Lizzington or DaddyGate?
Maybe a bit of both?

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Reblogging because this post had me struggling like hell. I needed a while, well months…. not to see it with Red and Liz but to accept it and find my own head-canon for it and in a way around it-why 19 hit me like a punch in the gut. But this is the best analysis i’ve read about their relationship we’ve seen in S1. Simply the best.








-this love Red has for Liz has existed, or at least has been building since she was four and he was already a full grown man. He is not meeting her for the first time as an adult, he has watched her grow up. This IS a love story, but not all love is romantic love.

-he said at one point: “if…

May I ask you something as a fellow blacklister? You ship Keenler which is an awesome ship. A few days ago you called Lizzington “ridiculous” and “a joke” which was already not very nice honestly. And to your post yesterday I replied at length.

And now you are making your argument why you believe that “the love story” I as lizzington shipper am hoping for isnt or will never be a romantic love story and place that in the ship tag. Again that is not very nice.

Why do you not simply enjoy *your* prefered fictional pairing and stop calling into question what others might see in Lizzington? You have all the mainstream bloggosphere on your side, you don’t have a daddygate to handle nor have you to hope for a long term perception change.

Why not simply make the case for *your* ship instead of making your case against mine?

I admit I overreacted(“ridiculous” comment)…and I’m sorry…won’t happen again… but…

you’re botherd that I put “lizzington” in the ship tag- I’m just expressing my thoughts,and they happens to be related to the lizzington fandom, therefore I placed it in the ship tag… people do that all the time

btw: I hate daddygate as much as you do, it’s so boring-it’s too simple,there has to be something more complex than that

well, the ship tag - that is my understanding from being in different fandoms already - is there for the people who really ship it. It’s simply the happy place while the main tag is there to discuss things like you posted. And of course is it legitimate to discuss what kind of “love story” we might have here - platonic, romantic, is it open to change or not. That’s the reason why the arrow fandom even invented a Nolicity tag to discuss all things that speak in the poster’s opinion against the olicity ship. I think that the main tag is enough to do just that but well they have it and use it.

But it is IMO a courtesy to keep the ship tag free from such posts - you wouldn’t want to encounter a post in the Keenler tag listing why it is really not an OTP but a BROTP, especially not when you go there to have fun and enjoy your ship :)

And as for overreacting, I have my moments with daddygate once in a while and can only hope that people look past it ;)

okay, I have two things to say that will probably make me unpopular with both of you…

— Firstly, I have no problem with discussion of any and every aspect of the relationship in the tag — as long as it’s not “eww but he’s her father/old enough to be…” I think it belongs in the tag. There is absolutely more than one kind of love. 

And here’s the thing that a lot of Lizzington shippers like to ignore bc we’re all gunshy about daddy gate and people jumping down our throats about ~*paternal*~ feelings (because a man in middle age is obviously past all sexual and romantic feelings and sees pretty women as ~daughters~ right??? :// it’s the dismissive naivete of that assumption that bothers me more than anything) — but. People who have intense relationships with each other are not just one thing to each other. They will find themselves filling multiple roles in each other’s lives. No matter how many friends and relatives they have, that’s a part of a relationship — and both Red and Liz have basically no one else int their lives at this point, which makes their relationship even more complicated and messy. 

Not only that, it has evolved through many different phases. Of course, when Red encountered Little Lizzy long ago, he was simply protective and decent. And then it’s obvious they had no contact for years and years, it’s hardly as though he raised her, and from Liz’s perspective he is a complete stranger when they meet “again.” And maybe Red knew something about Young Woman Lizzie, but clearly not very much. And then years later they met again, and speaking from experience here, even if the relationship is always platonic, you have to deal with the person in front of you, the current them not the memory of them you might have. You have to connect on your current terms or it doesn’t work (and for them that’s two grown, conflicted people in a state of crisis who depend on each other for known and unknown reasons).

So it is more than possible for relationships, romantic or otherwise, to contain aspects of ALL the different iterations, all the different things you’ve been to each other — even the protective, psuedo-familial, the adversarial, the friendly. And that’s not wrong, or twisted or unnatual — it is in fact human nature.

— I would like to also point out — on my little continual crusade as usual —  that romantic feelings and sexual feelings often go together, but they are not the same things it is possible to have romantic feelings, not friendly/platonic ones, without a sexual aspect to a relationship, just like some people get into sexual relationships without romantic feelings.

not that this is what you’re talking about here, but. I always like to remind people that even if a pairing never gets involved, or they only embrace certain parts of their relationship, it doesn’t mean their feelings were strictly friendly/familial, it just means they never acted on the romantic tension. 

THIS! Very well put as per usual. This complex “kaleidoscope” attribute of Red/Liz is probably what transformed me from casual viewer into what I am now. The fact that each shipper has their own unique interpretation of their dynamic is also endlessly fascinating to me. You can’t find two that totally match, yet we all root for the same outcome.

As to Megan’s “love story” comment:

I’ve seen this “it can be platonic” argument pop up a couple of times and it made me wonder: how would, for instance, the Keenler camp react if Megan said the same thing about Liz and Ressler? And how would they react if I went to them saying “but a love story can totally be about platonic love, y’know”? I suspect they would catch a whiff of my desperation, laugh in my face and go back to planning the wedding - quite understandably so, I might add.

I don’t claim to know exactly what Megan meant by “love story” but I know what meaning it holds for me: it’s romance. So after seeing others argue for it featuring platonic love, I thought that hey, maybe I got it wrong, so I decided to do a little research to see how the term “love story” is generally interpreted. I googled for articles listing the greatest love stories in movies, literature, history, etc. Every single one of them is a tale of lovers, a story of romantic love. If I wanted to find something of a platonic variety, I had to search specifically for “platonic love stories” and not even that yielded much.

So is it possible for a love story to be about platonic love? Yes, I suppose it is (with the exception of Berlin’s plane, a lot of things are still up in the air on the show, so a lot of things are still possible). But is it likely? No. Well, either that or Google is a closeted Lizzington shipper. Anyway, I simply don’t think Megan used this term expecting people to assign it its least likely interpretation when the other one (romance) is so dominant. It doesn’t mean the show will ever feature an overt, straightforward, full-on romantic relationship between Red and Liz, but it’s still more likely than a 100% platonic relationship being labeled a love story, imo.

^All of this. Enough said! Go home and torture your fellow shippers in the Keenler tag. I know it’s so hard to accept that Keenler will never happen and your desperation is making you do irrational things - especially destroying the fun for the Lizzington shippers by posting stuff in this tag. But please… stop it!

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